Holly Lisle just linked to a very frightening essay on public schools, which I largely agree with, though I should point out at this juncture that my parents began homeschooling me in the seventh grade, and that the only reoccurring nightmare I had as a child was the one where I did something really, really bad, and they made me go back. My attitude towards public school is not perhaps the most objective.
She also asked how we became readers, and if applicable writers. I was big on stories from very early on - my family still can recite parts of The Scrawny Tawny Lion, and I suspect I was taught to read mostly to spare them the endless requests for story. My own personal memory of the epiphany moment, though, was when I was seven and my mother handed me McCaffery's Dragonsinger and said, "Here. You'll like this."
For much of the rest of my childhood and teenage years people were yelling at me to put that book down while they spoke to me.
Writing was more drawn-out. I can remember being - four? five? - and lining my toys up to tell them stories; I have tapes of myself telling stories to my brother, mostly Pern fanfic, and I used to concoct elaborate make-believe games for us to play (unfortunately, with only two roles to fill, it tended to be Queen and Loyal Subject. There were a great many revolts of the peasantry.) One epiphany was in fifth grade when our teacher had us write a short story and a poem for class. She made a great fuss over mine, and I realized that hey, if I wrote all this stuff down then people would be really impressed and make fusses! I was (hell, still am) a terrible attention whore, and a great deal of poetry and unfinished stories resulted.
A second epiphany came when I was twelve or so and read a collection of LeGuin's essays on writing called The Language of the Night and realized that writing could be more than simply a yell for attention: it could be art, truth, self-expression, a voice, a means of growing. A great deal of finished but very dull and pretentious stories resulted, but I was getting closer.
And finally, when I was twenty, I hit on the real and final reason to write: I had to do something with these damned stories, because my subconscious clearly wasn't going to stop making them, and maybe if I wrote them down and got them right the voices would shut up and leave me in peace.
Well, it kinda works. They're quieter now. I don't run into so many walls.
Looking back, though, there is a real trend there, and that trend is my parents. I was always encouraged to read and to think about what I'd read. Unlike many of the writers I knew, I was encouraged to write: my parents came from hippie backgrounds, and though they never forced artistic accomplishment on us the way some parents from that era did, when I showed a leaning that way they praised me rather than dismissing it as "impractical." They never raised my hopes either - both had known enough aspiring artists to guess I wasn't going to make a million bucks writing - but it was always "what kind of job can you take that will leave you space for writing?" (or, if I was working for them as I am now, "are we leaving you enough space for writing?") and never "when are you going to get a real job?"
I'm not really all that independent. I'm not a natural rebel. Without that support, I suspect I'd have stayed a lifelong unsatisfied daydreamer.
School... never did much for me either way. I had supportive teachers, but I had far more teachers who simply didn't care and one who actively sabotaged my ego. I always liked learning, and I suspect I learned more reading the textbooks on my own than I ever did from them; certainly I learned more homeschooled than I did in public school. And don't even get me started on my "peer group". The use of peer pressure to encourage conformity and discourage thinking is the one big thing I think the author of that essay missed out on.
I doubt - for all that I agree with the essay - that it will do much good, not because of government or society, but because of parents.I've heard too many parents counting out loud the days until their kids go back to school to think they'd welcome a change that meant spending more time with the kids. Publically funded school has done good things - like letting both parents work when that was needed to keep the income coming - but it's also allowed a lot of people who didn't really want kids to dump them in free daycare until they're eighteen. It's going to take a far greater shift in public opinion and social structures than the essay suggests to go back to the good old days.
She also asked how we became readers, and if applicable writers. I was big on stories from very early on - my family still can recite parts of The Scrawny Tawny Lion, and I suspect I was taught to read mostly to spare them the endless requests for story. My own personal memory of the epiphany moment, though, was when I was seven and my mother handed me McCaffery's Dragonsinger and said, "Here. You'll like this."
For much of the rest of my childhood and teenage years people were yelling at me to put that book down while they spoke to me.
Writing was more drawn-out. I can remember being - four? five? - and lining my toys up to tell them stories; I have tapes of myself telling stories to my brother, mostly Pern fanfic, and I used to concoct elaborate make-believe games for us to play (unfortunately, with only two roles to fill, it tended to be Queen and Loyal Subject. There were a great many revolts of the peasantry.) One epiphany was in fifth grade when our teacher had us write a short story and a poem for class. She made a great fuss over mine, and I realized that hey, if I wrote all this stuff down then people would be really impressed and make fusses! I was (hell, still am) a terrible attention whore, and a great deal of poetry and unfinished stories resulted.
A second epiphany came when I was twelve or so and read a collection of LeGuin's essays on writing called The Language of the Night and realized that writing could be more than simply a yell for attention: it could be art, truth, self-expression, a voice, a means of growing. A great deal of finished but very dull and pretentious stories resulted, but I was getting closer.
And finally, when I was twenty, I hit on the real and final reason to write: I had to do something with these damned stories, because my subconscious clearly wasn't going to stop making them, and maybe if I wrote them down and got them right the voices would shut up and leave me in peace.
Well, it kinda works. They're quieter now. I don't run into so many walls.
Looking back, though, there is a real trend there, and that trend is my parents. I was always encouraged to read and to think about what I'd read. Unlike many of the writers I knew, I was encouraged to write: my parents came from hippie backgrounds, and though they never forced artistic accomplishment on us the way some parents from that era did, when I showed a leaning that way they praised me rather than dismissing it as "impractical." They never raised my hopes either - both had known enough aspiring artists to guess I wasn't going to make a million bucks writing - but it was always "what kind of job can you take that will leave you space for writing?" (or, if I was working for them as I am now, "are we leaving you enough space for writing?") and never "when are you going to get a real job?"
I'm not really all that independent. I'm not a natural rebel. Without that support, I suspect I'd have stayed a lifelong unsatisfied daydreamer.
School... never did much for me either way. I had supportive teachers, but I had far more teachers who simply didn't care and one who actively sabotaged my ego. I always liked learning, and I suspect I learned more reading the textbooks on my own than I ever did from them; certainly I learned more homeschooled than I did in public school. And don't even get me started on my "peer group". The use of peer pressure to encourage conformity and discourage thinking is the one big thing I think the author of that essay missed out on.
I doubt - for all that I agree with the essay - that it will do much good, not because of government or society, but because of parents.I've heard too many parents counting out loud the days until their kids go back to school to think they'd welcome a change that meant spending more time with the kids. Publically funded school has done good things - like letting both parents work when that was needed to keep the income coming - but it's also allowed a lot of people who didn't really want kids to dump them in free daycare until they're eighteen. It's going to take a far greater shift in public opinion and social structures than the essay suggests to go back to the good old days.
posted at 09:09 PM on 12/10/05
by kat -
Category: Writing
Stumble It!
Comments
Anders wrote:
Great post, and I totally agree with it. I'm in public school right now, so I can verify that what you and Holly and that article are saying is, for the most part, true.
12/10/05 11:14 PM
deRien wrote:
The only thing that's frightening is how bright, home-schooled, independent-thinking people like you aren't any more likely to examine material that reinforces your own ideas than anyone else. Worse yet, your first reaction to an article that has overstated demogogury written all over it is "yeah." If this: "The direct savings of such a step in the US would be $75-100 billion, a lot of unforeclosed home mortgages," doesn't set off your (in this case, right-wing, but you need both types) they just aren't functional.
Do you believe education and childcare arrangements in Sweden reflect less state "interference?" Do you imagine this writer would advocate the massive taxes and income transfers that enable Swedish arrangements for early childhood? Have you read enough John Dewey to judge whether the quotation is taken out of context? Do you think the majority of home-schooling parents - still largely for religious reasons despite some recent trends - are teaching their kids to "think for themselves?" Do you think my 12 years of Catholic school was set up for that purpose?
In Holly's case, I'd note that anyone who thinks Ann Coulter is credible or that that peaceful disappearance of slavery in a generation inevitable if the American Civil War never happened
shows the futility of being able to think if you don't have a broad exposure to educated people. I'd also note that the first product of her homeschooling has fulfilled that "frightening" Prussian aim of state education the military - the default career of the aimless, brainless part of the working class.
Think it will happen with mine, partly educated in public schools that they are?
Do you believe education and childcare arrangements in Sweden reflect less state "interference?" Do you imagine this writer would advocate the massive taxes and income transfers that enable Swedish arrangements for early childhood? Have you read enough John Dewey to judge whether the quotation is taken out of context? Do you think the majority of home-schooling parents - still largely for religious reasons despite some recent trends - are teaching their kids to "think for themselves?" Do you think my 12 years of Catholic school was set up for that purpose?
In Holly's case, I'd note that anyone who thinks Ann Coulter is credible or that that peaceful disappearance of slavery in a generation inevitable if the American Civil War never happened
shows the futility of being able to think if you don't have a broad exposure to educated people. I'd also note that the first product of her homeschooling has fulfilled that "frightening" Prussian aim of state education the military - the default career of the aimless, brainless part of the working class.
Think it will happen with mine, partly educated in public schools that they are?
12/11/05 05:46 PM
kat wrote:
deRien:
I'd point out the bit at the top where I note my utter inability to be objective about public school. Without going into detail, we'll just say that being a shy, introspective, intelligent girl from an agnostic family made the local school a never-ending nightmare for me, and leave it at that.
My only experience with schools since then was a semester doing reading tutoring with second graders, which was another nightmare - not because of the kids, who were lovable enough little monsters for the most part, but because of the system. I love reading, that's why I volunteered to tutor, and to discover that the kids were being forced to memorize the same three mindlessly boring books and this was called "teaching" them to "read" - to watch them stumble over simple reading and treat something I loved with resentment and fear - to realize that they'd never once been offered their choice of books to read, and to watch the stunned joy on their faces when I told them that no, really, they could pick *any book they wanted* and we'd read it - this was a living horror to me, and did not improve my opinion of public schools. I cannot imagine anyone coming out of that situation with an idea of reading - or learning - as anything but a distasteful chore.
I know too many parents who send their children to school and then go, "Well, that's them educated," and never think about the matter again; never ask their children what they learned in school; never encourage their children to read, or help them with their homework, or teach them anything, because that's the job of teachers and school is taking care of all of that. Our society has drawn a line between "school" and "home", between "teacher" and "parent", and done it so successfully that many never even notice or question its existance.
That said, while I agree with most of what the essay said about the effect of public schools, I do not at all agree with his "cures." Not everyone can homeschool, and I'm very much aware - even leaving aside the "religious reasons" people, who are frequently scary - of the mistakes and miseducations that can result from middling parents becoming bad teachers. Homeschooling essentially requires at least one parent to stay at home all the time, and not everyone has either the economic capability or the emotional makeup for such a thing. My parents deliberately chose a career path that would let them both stay home all day, but how many could or would do such a thing?
What I'd really like to see is a push away from this idea that it's okay for parents - especially fathers, it seems - to have nothing to do with their children's lives; that it's "normal" not to understand your kids, that it's "normal" for them to hang out only with other children and not adults, that it's "normal" for a complete alienation to develop between parent and child with no overlap of interests, tastes, or friends. But I've no idea how such a thing could be instituted. Certainly not by abolishing public schools, but....
I'd point out the bit at the top where I note my utter inability to be objective about public school. Without going into detail, we'll just say that being a shy, introspective, intelligent girl from an agnostic family made the local school a never-ending nightmare for me, and leave it at that.
My only experience with schools since then was a semester doing reading tutoring with second graders, which was another nightmare - not because of the kids, who were lovable enough little monsters for the most part, but because of the system. I love reading, that's why I volunteered to tutor, and to discover that the kids were being forced to memorize the same three mindlessly boring books and this was called "teaching" them to "read" - to watch them stumble over simple reading and treat something I loved with resentment and fear - to realize that they'd never once been offered their choice of books to read, and to watch the stunned joy on their faces when I told them that no, really, they could pick *any book they wanted* and we'd read it - this was a living horror to me, and did not improve my opinion of public schools. I cannot imagine anyone coming out of that situation with an idea of reading - or learning - as anything but a distasteful chore.
I know too many parents who send their children to school and then go, "Well, that's them educated," and never think about the matter again; never ask their children what they learned in school; never encourage their children to read, or help them with their homework, or teach them anything, because that's the job of teachers and school is taking care of all of that. Our society has drawn a line between "school" and "home", between "teacher" and "parent", and done it so successfully that many never even notice or question its existance.
That said, while I agree with most of what the essay said about the effect of public schools, I do not at all agree with his "cures." Not everyone can homeschool, and I'm very much aware - even leaving aside the "religious reasons" people, who are frequently scary - of the mistakes and miseducations that can result from middling parents becoming bad teachers. Homeschooling essentially requires at least one parent to stay at home all the time, and not everyone has either the economic capability or the emotional makeup for such a thing. My parents deliberately chose a career path that would let them both stay home all day, but how many could or would do such a thing?
What I'd really like to see is a push away from this idea that it's okay for parents - especially fathers, it seems - to have nothing to do with their children's lives; that it's "normal" not to understand your kids, that it's "normal" for them to hang out only with other children and not adults, that it's "normal" for a complete alienation to develop between parent and child with no overlap of interests, tastes, or friends. But I've no idea how such a thing could be instituted. Certainly not by abolishing public schools, but....
12/13/05 04:23 PM
deRien wrote:
Sorry, Kat - respect you too much to accept your professed "utter inability to be objective about public school." Aside from the tedious and unuseful arguments ablut "objectivity", being rigorous about your own opinions is something you owe to yourself and everyone else. You do it with other things.
Anyway, that you ALSO loathe public schools doesn't necessarily mean you agree with "most" of what the essay said. This might be about vouchers - a common hobby-horse of the right but not one I, for instance, particulalry oppose. But the snipes at the codeworded "state socialism" and the nostalgia for the hypothetical golden age of 1850 (and if you think America was populated by rigorous thinkers then, you ought to reread Huck Finn and see what a genuine independent thinker thought of his contemporaries' habits of mind.
The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
Anyway, that you ALSO loathe public schools doesn't necessarily mean you agree with "most" of what the essay said. This might be about vouchers - a common hobby-horse of the right but not one I, for instance, particulalry oppose. But the snipes at the codeworded "state socialism" and the nostalgia for the hypothetical golden age of 1850 (and if you think America was populated by rigorous thinkers then, you ought to reread Huck Finn and see what a genuine independent thinker thought of his contemporaries' habits of mind.
The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
12/20/05 05:52 AM
deRien wrote:
Oh, and why is your blog periodically balky about giving a screen long enough to scroll though long entries and comments? Is it my settings?
12/20/05 05:54 AM